3603 patchmod balancing discussion

[:1]To finaly solve all the trouble about the current Balancing Situation in FA, there will be this thread about it!
The purpose of this discussion is to find new Balancing-Settings for a new and common Community Balancing-Patchmod based on 3603_v5 (wich will be developed, based upon the Results).
EVERYBODY can post here and is welcome! But if you want to take part of it, you should know about the Balancing in
3599 http://supcomdb.com/db/,
3603v5 http://www.fa-ladder.com/index.php?link=3&skin=1 and
3604 http://forums.gaspowered.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=51145!
We had a discussion about it allready. Here are the additional changes to 3603_v5.1 compared to 3599:
• aeon T2 Mobile Shield Generator: Parashield
- Shield health changed from 4000 to 3500
- increased buildtime from 720 to 792
• cybran ACU health changed from 10000 to 10500
• T3 AA Gunship Restorer:
- Costs and Build-Time (from 1200M 60000E 4800T to 1764M 42000E 8820T)
- normal Weapon = 270 DPS
- Anti-Air Weapon = 27DPS
- max airspeed reduced to 9 from 10
• T2 Mobile Shield Generator: Asylum
- Shield health changed from 5000 to 4500
- increased buildtime from 600 to 660
• Increased T3 Air Factory Cost (from 2520M 46200E to 2750M 72000E)
• T2 Transporter health changed from 3050 to 2440
You think oh no that isnt right! or you have a good idea? post it!|||I have a good idea. Instead of going all "Oh noes LD hasn't replied to his email for a while, we should make a community mod instead!" You could just, you know, wait till my finals are over and then nudge me into action. The community will get its changes. Patience is a virtue.|||pwnt.|||LD, the idea was to give it an other name (not 3603) and make this a community mod. That would be way less confusing and we are far away from the "original" 3603-Settings anyway.
So whats you problem with that?|||The last thing the community needs is another community mod (how ******* many do we have).
Stick with the biggest, if you don't like the balance in the biggest; suggest some well thought out changes.
DO NOT just fork off a new version to your own liking. The Open Source community does this all the time, and 97.2% projects die because everyone gets too fragmented.
Let LD finish his exams and he'll come back to it. Show some patience, and consideration for other people.|||We dont want to do "just an other" community mod.
What we are working on, is to migrate 3603v5 and 3604 and improve all the settings even more to create one common and global balancing mod. For that, everybody can work together with us on this project.|||If you want to slap another name on it, fine I don't care but there's absolutely no need to make it a community mod. This is just other people wanting a slice of the pie. That's fine. There's other ways to get involved than just bluntly telling me "Thanks for the work but we'll take it from here"
Hey, if you want to deal with random people whining to you about change X to unit Y but not to unit Z be my guest.
Migrating 3603 and 3604 isn't even hard because every single unit is either already in 3603 and you just have to change some values or you can simply drag and drop the file from the 3604 folder to the 3603 folder. In fact none of the modding is hard, it's all the people complaining about changes they don't like but never giving any credit for the things they do like that makes this mod such a pain in the ***.
Turning it into a community mod will only make things worse. Besides inviting "everyone" to work on it never works. You are going to say no to some people or if you don't, you're going to find it impossible to get anything done. Eventually the only ones that are going to be working on it are the ones that came up with the idea.
That's the two of you and maybe Moritz too, I don't know how involved he wants to be. Then there's me, but I don't feel the need to be part of yet another community project doomed to fail because nothing will be organized properly.
To me this whole thing is a big **** you because god forbid I'm not working on it 24/7 so now the "community" has to do it.
Learn to have some goddamn patience and I'll fix it, bloody hell man.|||Legion Darrath|||LD, so what you want to tell me, thats its either done by you, or its doomed to fail?
Or do i misunderstand you?
I just dont get your point atm...|||I'm saying it's better done by one person than by the "community" or a group of people, each with their own ideas and opinions and that I feel like I'm getting shafted here.|||If its done by one person, there will be many others that say "oh no, those settings are carp".
Ofcourse, if its discussed, its also not possible to find find settings that everyone like. But its a much better way, imo
Anyway, i still dont understand why you feel pissed now. You have done the scripting for the 3603 mod. And? Afaik, the Changes are discussed with Rock and so on. So where is the difference to what we are doing right now?|||Legion Darrath|||I'm with Resin_Smoker. Most mod projects needs a 'leader' (one or two, no more).If you don't you end up with endless discussing and that leads no where (see (most?) governments). I've seen it before and I've been involved a few times, here on the forum with Supcom mod projects. It just doesn't work with more than 2 guys. Another example is the number of balance mods...
That doesn't mean that any project should be limited to 2 people developers, not at all. It just means decisions have to be made to get any kind of progress and you can't satisfy everyone.
For the CBFP it was me who made the decisions. I (tried to) listened to the community and the feedback I got and I welcomed everyone who helped fixing bugs. It seemed to work out nicely although I admit there wasn't a lot to discuss about. A bug is a bug.
That said, a balance mod is probably the hardest kind of mod. There is no right or wrong and everyone has an opinion. The only 'person' who can make balance changes that everyone will play (whether they like it or not) is GPG. Unfortunately that won't happen anymore.
In my opinion the best thing to do here is to not have many balance mods but just one and 'everyone' should play it. The leader of that project should listen to the community and then make decisions. Not everyone will like the decisions but that's jsut too bad. Not everyone can be satisfied. Learn to live with it or provide proof that it doesn't work. A good project leader will listen and either explain why certain aspects are they way they are or change it (again).
This balance mod project I'm describing could be called a comunity project. There is nothing dirty about that word (right?). It's all about a good project leader who listens to the community and dares to make decisions that affect 'everyone'. As long as 'everyone' gives good feedback this process should work for everyone in the end.
By the way, I'm not refering to any person or mod here. I'm not saying 'use mod x' or 'person y should do it'. I just like to see the 'discussing' (fighting is more like it) set aside.
Before anyone asks; yes I do have a new version of the CBFP planned. But between my day job and Nomads I don't have any time to work on it. Maybe when I need a break from Nomads!|||Ok i see we cant discuss it here in the forum. Was just an idea.
It worked much better in a seperated chatroom.
@LD email? I dont know what you want. I thought we can talk a little bit here about it. No one said we have to take the changes here.
If you want to make it alone i can't help you.|||brute51|||Legion Darrath|||What so you mean is that LD should balance make the balance mod alone? No offence but isnt he pretty bad? In order to have a good understanding about the balance of the game you need to be pretty good at it. Period.
I dont think anyone care how actually makes the mod but let one semi-good player who doesnt even play anymore do the actual balancing is crazy to me.
With that said I hope this will be more about the actual balance from now on.

On T3 navy:
We have been used to have t2 navy as the end tech for navy (exept for sera). 3603 changed that and t3 navy viable in many situations. That is a huge improvment! A whole new tech level to play around with pretty much. Getting to T3 navy should put pressure on your opponents just as t3 land or t3 air does. But its not an auto win to fast tech navy still, all the t3 navy (exept sera again) units are support units that need a whole bunch of other units to be effective (air and torp defense). All in all i think t3 navy works really well and is perhaps the most fun tech level in the entire game. The only issue I can see is with battlecrusiers, they might need a slight nerf but its nothing serious. I havn't tested it but i dont recognize this issue with the sera battleship. I think it drains 4000 per tick like it should?|||The balance can come from anywhere, I just do the coding. I've mostly been taking my queues from Rock since he's the one in charge of the FA Ladder Mod thing. I assume he discusses proposed changes with other people that have a sense of balance before informing me.
True, I have no sense of balance because I simply don't care. However if all of a sudden it's a community project where everyone can help you'll run into conflicts because various people have various opinions about balance. Anyway let's not go off on this tangent again.
Regarding the Sera battleship, I believe the issues is the cost of the battleship compared to the cost of the other faction's nuke subs right now and not the actual nuke.|||Well, it's possible to develop with multiple people as long as there's a single point of control who is disciplined.
Eg. the person who uploads the mod to the vault, is usually well-known as the maintainer of the mod, and thus has some authority even in a team of volunteers.
If people argue, this person can just put his foot down and decide, or mediate, or whatever.
For people who just want to code and can't stand arguments, that's probably bad.
For someone like me, who is too lazy to code and loves arguments, it's a great way to take credit for other peoples' work :D|||AdmiralZeech|||Legion Darrath